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A Conversation with Erika Mailman
In February of 2008 I read and reviewed The Witch’s Trinity by Erika Mailman. Little did I know then that she would be the first author to email me after I posted my review. That started an email conversation that I really enjoyed and ultimately sparked my idea to feature her and her novel on my blog all throughout last October in my October Spotlight. In addition to reposting my review and offering a giveaway, Erika wrote a guest post.
During that time, we had a phone conversation that I had planned on posting at the end of the month. As luck would have it, life got in the way and I didn’t have enough time to transcribe it. It’s been a few months, but I thought that it would be great to prepare it to coincide with Erika’s giveaway of one hard cover and one paperback copy of The Witch’s Trinity on her blog, The World of Mailman.
Later this week I will be posting a review and other posts about The Last Witch of Langenburg by Thomas Robishaeux this week as well. It’s safe and appropriate to say that the witch is back here on The Literate Housewife Review this week!
Without any further delay, here is the conversation Erika and I had last October:
Literate Housewife: How is it that you set out to write The Witch’s Trinity?
Erika Mailman: A really good friend of mine knew that I was interested in history, so he gave me a copy of audio-taped lectures called “The Terror of History” by UCLA professor Teofilo Ruiz. Over the course of these lectures, Ruiz talks about the history of witchcraft and all of the belief systems involved. The last cassette (this was back in the day when I still had a cassette player in my car) was about the witch hunts when they really heated up. One of the things he talked about statistically high number of accusations that were made by daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law. This is attention grabbing in itself, but even worse was the reason why. These people were so hungry that they found themselves looking around their tables wondering what it would be like to have one less person there. If this person weren’t doing any work because they’re older, they’re a little more expendable. So, whether consciously or sub-consciously, they were looking to get fewer people eating at the table. That blew my mind. I was shocked and horrified to think about people offering up their own family members because they were that hungry.
LH: One thing that struck me immediately in your novel was Güde’s vulnerability, even though she was Jost’s mother. It felt like elder abuse. I know that times were different, but I didn’t look upon the daughter-in-law very kindly after that.
EM: She’s fighting for her children, too. In that era, life expectancy was very much shortened. In your late 30s you were getting ready to leave.
LH: Oh Lord, here I go… (laughter)
EM: The few who managed to make it past all of the diseases, plagues, and even things like what we consider simple infections today and you make it to their 70s and 80s start gathering attention to themselves as someone strange. In that way, Güde is historically accurate. She’s outlived her usefulness. Her mind is starting to go, so she is not easy to be around within a starving family with two young children. Consciously or otherwise, Irmeltrud is thinking about what is best for her kids.
LH: What I still remember from when I read your novel was just how glad I was to be born in this day and age.
EM: Absolutely. I used to say how lucky I was to live in this time period, but I’m really lucky to live on this continent. There are still witchcraft persecutions taking place in Africa. People are literally being doused with gasoline and set on fire just like being burned at the stake today for the crime of witchcraft. I’m hoping that with this book I can bring a little attention and focus to that as well. It’s heartbreaking. I think we all like to think that “Ah, that was the middle ages, the dark ages, we’ve come so far.” [In the Western world] We are not driving women to the town square and hanging them or burning them, but people are still unsafe in certain parts of the world. That’s really tragic.
LH: I had no idea that it was still happening. I have recently read several books that take place during the Inquisition and how horrible that was. A lot of times the focus is on the Catholic Church’s role in that, but it wasn’t always the Catholics who did such things. In Salem, MA is was the Puritans. Can’t people learn from others who had done such things before?
EM: It is really upsetting. The New York Times ran an article about something much like my novel. It was about families who are hungry and how they are trying to take care of their own. They are pushing out family members for being witches, leaving them without a place to stay or the ability to feed and clothe themselves. This time, however, it’s not elderly being targeted. It’s the children. The article ran with a photo of a four-year-old boy who had been kicked out like that and it made me nauseous. This is not to say that children weren’t targeted in the medieval period. They were, but in most circumstances it was elderly or middle aged family members.
LH: What was it that made you select Germany as the setting for your novel?
EM: Germany really was the heart of the witch hunts. The authors of the Malleus Maleficarum, the witch hunter’s bible, were German friars. I’m also of German heritage. My last name Mailman comes from Mehlmen. I wanted to go to the dark forest, thinking about the Brother’s Grimm and their medieval folklore landscape. All of those things pointed me toward Germany.
LH: Do you think it was simply superstition that made people do those things like turn on neighbors or outsiders or were they hungry and trying to gain some sort of control over their environment?
EM: I think you put your finger on it. The environment is out of their control. They were trying in their small, disparate ways to control the uncontrollable. Fate is random and harsh. The world isn’t easy for people who didn’t understand scientific explanations for famine, earthquakes, or lightning strikes. They were searching for a way to explain things and the only thing available to them are others around them. Even today, when things get bad people turn to scapegoats for an explanation. For example, after September 11th, a lot of people were either avoiding or even attacking people who looked Muslim. Another example is John Ritter. After he died, his widow, being heartbroken and trying to find an explanation for why this terrible random thing happen, looked to the hospital and medical providers to place blame. Now that our economy is really tanked and going down, I hope that we can resist the temptation to blame someone else.
LH: One of the things you brought out in your book were the tests taken to see if someone was a witch, such as the pebble test. If you could reach in and pull out three pebbles from the boiling pot of water without getting burned, you were not a witch. Knowing that is impossible, that whole scene made me really angry. The priest never reached in to prove that he could do it, did he. What in your opinion were some of the more bizarre ways that people tested for witchcraft that you uncovered during your research?
EM: First I want to mention the pebble trial. That was not something I invented. I came across this during my research. If you put your hand in boiling water you will of course burn. The only modification I made [in the novel] was to make it be three pebbles, keeping with the motif of threes throughout the book.
Another famously unfair test was witch dunking. In this situation, the woman’s thumbs would be tied to their big toes, in essence hobbling them. The woman is then tossed into the water. If she somehow managed to wrestle her body around and stay afloat and keep breathing, she was guilty. If she sank and drown, she and her family have the satisfaction of proving her innocence. Still, she is dead.
The last witchcraft trial in the United States, someone in what is now Virginia Beach was dunked and managed to float. They pulled her out and, although I forget what the exact circumstances were, she was eventually let go despite the fact that she didn’t sink and drown. Not that many hundred years ago people were thinking this was a good idea.
LH: What would you consider to have been the most sadistic method of torturing witches?
EM: Before I wrote this novel, my husband and I went to visit a torture exhibit put on by Amnesty International. This exhibit traveled all over the country. You just cannot go there and without being affected. You wonder who these people were who thought “How can I hurt my fellow human being in the worst way possible?” In fact, one of the worst parts about the exhibit was reading the plaque with each tool and see that it was used in 14th century Italy, 15th century Germany and in use today in Argentina. That was the point of the exhibit. This is not just buried in the past. Torture is still being used.
I feel like as a woman that The Tear is the most exquisitely sadist torture instrument. It is a devise that I talk about that in my book. It is inserted into the vagina and when itt is opened inside it the woman’s vagina into shreds. You can’t look on something like that and not imagine it being used on you or someone you love. So, when I wrote my book I was concerned. I wanted it to be readable yet allow people to learn about the horrors of the witchcraft trials. But I also wanted it to be realistic so I had to do some creative things to get around it. This is not an easy read for those who are compassionate, but it’s readable.
LH: As I wrote my review, my heart was racing almost the entire time I read it. I wanted very desperately to escape the book, but I had to keep reading because I needed to know what happened.
EM: Thank you for that. It would be interesting to figure out the psychology of an inquisitor. Is this someone who is fervently religious and really thinks he is doing the right thing, or is there some mysogony not just under the skin but deliberately out there? It would be so interesting if we could go in a time machine and bring one of them back. We could ask them what was on their minds? What were they thinking? Did they think they were saving the woman from Hell’s eternal flames by torturing them on earth or did they not have her best interests at heart?
LH: Even the community’s best interests for that matter.
EM: Right.
LH: Did you find in your research that people would stand up against these trials?
EM: Yes to a degree, although the Malleus Maleficarum makes a point to say that anyone standing in defense of a witch is defending a heretic. They themselves are therefore under suspicion of heresy themselves. There was a discussion as to whether a witch should be allowed an advocate, an attorney in that era, but even the advocate would be under suspicion of heresy. So, it was really dangerous to stick your neck out for anyone else. It did happen, but somebody would have been very courageous to do so.
EM: Going back to the pebble test, my initial thought was to say, “You do it first and show me.” That much would have been the end of me, wouldn’t it?
LH: That’s powerful reasoning and they weren’t able to bring it to the forefront. I have an ancestor who was accused of witchcraft in Massachusetts. The Afterwards of the novel discusses her. She did have witnesses come forward to say that she’s not a witch. The person accusing her has a long term vendetta against her and eventually [the government] was reasonable. She was let go.
I think women accused of witchcraft were safer in New England than in Europe because it wasn’t so deeply entrenched there. Europe had the 400 year cycle of killing witches. New England was a newer area. I learned through some research that 30% of witches accused in New England were acquitted. It seems like people were becoming a little more enlightened by that time. They were becoming more skeptical. Those people who came out at trial to support my ancestor were less at risk than somebody might have been in medieval Europe.
LH: The men in your novel take off to the woods to search for food, leaving their wives and mothers in jeopardy without having them there to defend them. How much of their decision to leave at that crucial time was because of their own guilt over not being able to take care of their family?
EM: I had never thought about it that way, but they were in a sense retreating from their hardships.
LH: It seemed awfully convenient for them to choose that time to look for food away from the village.
The Hunters In The Snow by Pieter Bruegel
EM: These characters are desperate. If the woods are emptied and there is nothing to eat, they have to keep moving to find animal footprints in the snow. I was inspired in part by a painting I’ve loved for so long: Pieter Bruegel’s ‘The Hunters in the Snow.’ It’s a wonderful, desolate painting of what looks like a partially abandoned village. The hunters are coming back after clearly being away for a while, but they’ve got meat with them. I’ve used that painting with classes because several poets have used it as a jumping off place for writing poems. In my English classes I show the painting and then the poems and have my students write on it as well.
I have spent so much time looking at the details of that painting that it just kind of organically arose in my mind. Güde’s son Jost was protecting her and he needed to leave so that she was more vulnerable. It made sense that he had to leave to get more food. I think that painting helped me make that plot decision.
LH: The Witch’s Trinity isn’t your first novel. Your first novel takes place during the Gold Rush. How was the experience different between writing those two books?
EM: Oh, worlds apart. The first book is Woman of Ill Fame and it’s about a prostitute who comes to San Franscisco at the very beginnings of the Gold Rush. It’s a little bit of a murder mystery with a Jack the Ripper kind of character. It’s also a romp. It was fun and I hope that the main character is funny. People have told me that they’ve laughed out loud about a few things. From there, I went to the painful research for The Witch’s Trinity. I hope this demonstrates that there is versatility in me. I’m a voracious reader and love to read all kinds of books. I didn’t want to get stereotyped into be a certain kind of writer.
LH: What are you working on now?
EM: I am working on a young adult horror novel. There is a ghost story type of haunted mansion.
LH: Erika, thank you so much for talking with me. I enjoyed reading your novel and working with you in my October spotlight. I look forward to reading your next novel.
EM: I really appreciate your interest and what you are doing for me on your blog. It’s so cool.
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April 6, 2009 | Filed Under The Parlor, interview
Comments
9 Responses to “A Conversation with Erika Mailman”
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Amy @ My Friend Amy
Posted: Apr 6th, 2009 at 12:36 am1Reply to this comment.Jennifer, I’m not going to read the interview until I’ve had a chance to read the book…which I bought just today when I saw it, remembering your review!
Amy @ My Friend Amy’s last blog post..The Sunday Salon and BAFAB Week!
Amy, I’m so excited that you have it! I am really looking forward to seeing what everyone else thinks. -
Kathy
Posted: Apr 6th, 2009 at 8:49 am2Reply to this comment.This is fabulous, Jennifer! I think one of the best things about blogging (besides meeting other great bloggers) is the contact with authors.
Kathy’s last blog post..Mailbox Monday
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jennsbookshelf
Posted: Apr 6th, 2009 at 9:04 am3Reply to this comment.Great interview! This book has been on my wish list for some time!
jennsbookshelf’s last blog post..It’s Monday! What are you reading this week?
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Heidi
Posted: Apr 6th, 2009 at 9:30 am4Reply to this comment.Fabulous interview. It is so wonderful to know that your work makes a difference to readers AND writers!
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Jen - Devourer of Books
Posted: Apr 6th, 2009 at 12:16 pm5Reply to this comment.Okay, okay, I am going to read this book already. I’ve had it in mind since your review last year and have even had it as a preferred search at the library. I WAS going to wait until I had fewer books already out, but I give up, I just need to read this, I officially
Jen – Devourer of Books’s last blog post..Godmother: The Secret Cinderella Story – Book Review
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Jen - Devourer of Books
Posted: Apr 6th, 2009 at 12:16 pm6Reply to this comment.Evidently I ‘offically’ hit submit too soon. I was going to say that I officially requested the book, which should mean that I will pick it up sometime this week.
Jen – Devourer of Books’s last blog post..THAT Brought You HERE?
YEA! I’m so glad that I’ve finally brow beaten you into sumission. LOL! Don’t forget to head over to Erika’s blog and enter to win a copy if you’re interested. I can’t wait to hear what you think. -
Ti
Posted: Apr 6th, 2009 at 12:30 pm7Reply to this comment.Thanks for the in-depth interview. I haven’t read the book yet but from what you both shared here I have to say that it’s piqued my interest.
Ti’s last blog post..Mailbox Monday: April 6, 2009
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Diana Raabe
Posted: Apr 6th, 2009 at 9:18 pm8Reply to this comment.Nice interview – and move, by the way! Did you change your name, too?
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gwendolyn b.
Posted: Apr 7th, 2009 at 12:58 pm9Reply to this comment.Great interview! I read this book just a few weeks ago and really liked it. This interview just enchances the whole experience. You did a great job!
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